Curse

Chocobo1 · Jan 04, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

If anything, Dagger sins actually need to be nerfed. Death Blossom is 80 AoE armor ignoring damage every 2-3 seconds because of the great synergy between DB and Moebius Strike.

Coupled with Critical Agility, which not only boosts the already high damage output of the sin but also covers the sin's primary weakness of low armor, you have yourself an insane damage dealing machine.

I have no idea why people are looking at the actual damge of the Daggers, it's not like you auto attack with Sins.

Press_ALT_F4 · Jan 05, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Simply put, mesmers.

IronSheik · Jan 05, 2010, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Paragon motivation line, maybe a little spear.

Mesmers everything minus inspiration.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 05, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I have no idea why people are looking at the actual damge of the Daggers

Because they have no bloody idea how the game works and are just blowing wind out their mouths.

Giga_Gaia · Jan 05, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Actually, sins need to die, especially in PvP. I am so sick of seeing 12345 Palm strike noobs everywhere I go...

darkknightkain · Jan 05, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

IMO, the issue with Dagger Sins are not the damage, but the survivability (survivability outside of SF). Critical Agility can only go so far, it still feels riskier in picking a Dagger Sin than a normal War.

Among the classes, I think Mesmer is probably the class that need the most in general PvE-centric buff. The only builds that used to be viable for groups were either Cry of Pain or Usran Blessing, both of which were nerfed.

Next is Eles. Sure they can be healers, but that's not what they were designed for. Now that most of the mobs in PvE are level 28~30-ish. It feels kind of unimpressive after all their armour bonuses. Some even have resistances/immunity to the specific elements. (Unfortunately doing anything to eles is a double-edged sword as that also buffed the mobs even more)

Paragons also worth a look. It is too much of a 1-build-only wonder (as P/W using Save Yourselves). More options would be preferred.

One of my biggest frustration towards GW skill balance is that skill balance should NOT be just about having skills changed. When the skills do get changed, the associated monsters/npcs/henchmen should also be updated to reflect the said changes in the skills, which anet always keeps forgetting to do during their skill balances.

Gennadios · Jan 05, 2010, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

Paragons also worth a look. It is too much of a 1-build-only wonder (as P/W using Save Yourselves). More options would be preferred.

I've yet to see a single player /w a para as a primary that actually uses it. There are better, or viable options for the class, it just takes a massive amount of experience to put the limited skill set to use.

The only thing that needs looking into is Motivation. The rest of the skill lines are fine, but motivation is utterly useless outside of Aria of Zeal and chorus of restoration.

It's actually pretty maddening that that ANet's toying around with Tactics/Hammer skill trees, which at least get some use in PvP, while kicking to the curb Paragons and Dervs, who are the latest classes, and as such have the fewest skills to work with.

Warriors are doing fine without hammers or tactics, but considering the very low skill pool, and the even lower number of useful skills in the NF classes, they could use some major love.

Giga_Gaia · Jan 05, 2010, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

Next is Eles. Sure they can be healers, but that's not what they were designed for. Now that most of the mobs in PvE are level 28~30-ish. It feels kind of unimpressive after all their armour bonuses. Some even have resistances/immunity to the specific elements. (Unfortunately doing anything to eles is a double-edged sword as that also buffed the mobs even more)

All Ele's would need to do to start dealing damage in PvE is simply apply cracked armor. But for those who are too lazy/dumb/stubborn to do that, I suppose they could buff Elemental Lord and Intensity, since those two skills suck almost as bad as the mesmers, paragons, and dervs do.

asb · Jan 05, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Mesmers, as it is a base class that still suffers from all those PvP related nerfs ages ago. Also, I think they have the least amount of skills compared to other classes - see the wiki talk page on Mesmers. I wouldn't want a power buff cept for inspiration, just a recharge time/functionality change for a large number of skills.

Sunyavadin · Jan 05, 2010, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

One of my biggest frustration towards GW skill balance is that skill balance should NOT be just about having skills changed. When the skills do get changed, the associated monsters/npcs/henchmen should also be updated to reflect the said changes in the skills, which anet always keeps forgetting to do during their skill balances.

Ah, but isn't it funny to find a boss suddenly unable to use his skill bar effectively?

Turbo Ginsu · Jan 05, 2010, 09:50 AM // 09:50

mesmers are still quite viable, but I'l be honest and say that for me, the VoR nerf not being given a PvP/PvE split was a real kick in the nuts.

Try as I may, and I do love my Mes, and still use it a lot, I cannot get even close to the dmg numbers I used to hit easily before they destroyed the ability to stack it without penalty with other nice hexes such as Empathy or Backfire, just to name 2 of the most obvious. Don't for a second believe that I have not built and built and built and built to try, and whilst I can get.....sorta decent damage, the no-stack clause is set in stone and the numbers don't lie.

The fact is, not everyone wants to roll a mes as an int bot, nor do they want to run them as another class entirely. Some people (call it strange) want to run a mes as the damage monster it used to be, not the second-rate shadow of itself that it is now.

As someone else already stated in another thread, Mesmers get the same result as other classes, all they need to do is 3 times as much work to achieve it now.

Apart from running any one of a million variations of SoI Mes, most using PvE only skills, or relying on another classes skills rather than their own, I find that they just don't excite me like they used to, which sucks, because they're still my favourite class. See that little guy in my avatar over there? That's how I wanna look, that's what I wanna be, because it's where my GW heart has lain since GW stole me from Neverwinter Nights nearly four years ago.

What I don't want, is to feel like aNet has emasculated him and now have his aforementioned's locked away in a little box somewhere, not unlike Davy Jones' Heart..

So many people in GW cry "OP!" about so many things, but really, go play NwN sometime, you really have no idea of OP's true meaning until you see some of the builds that can be made there. No idea at all.

I guess, I'm not so much in favour of a buff so much as a proper pve split of several of the skills that should have had it in the first place.

AmbientMelody · Jan 05, 2010, 12:56 PM // 12:56

What I'd like to see:

Dervish - all-round buff in pve (something more serious this time ... preferably redesigning Mysticism attribute and moving some crucial-utility skills from Wind and Earth Prayers to Mysticism).

Ritualist - duh, for some reason I'm still unimpressed with bonuses given by Spawning Power and overall utility of Channeling spells in pve. I don't give a flying f... about farming, I don't see much utility in team for Channelers anyway, whereas elem could fill a lot of offensive roles with many offensive builds. Perhaps the matter of being limited to one 'element' (lightning/spiritual) and low number of skills not creating the needed diversity. Dervish suffers from similar problem in a way.

Warrior - hammers are fun for pve but not when everyone expects you to tank mobs with a shield or when suddenly many mobs are immune to any form of knockdown. I don't know how to fix this issue tbh?

Assassin - could use some buffs here and there aimed at team play (since he will get 'solo nerf' in form of SF). Perhaps Deadly Arts line could be made much more interesting to use in pve.

Ranger - too boring to even play it, so I will skip this part entirely and let experts talk more on this character.

Elementalist - old stuff new again - increase aoe and decrease recharge on very few already Air skills hitting multiple targets. Air Ele should outmatch DPS-wide each and every fire Ele when fighting well-armoured mobs. 25% AP with crappy recharge on skills simply doesn't cut it at all. Water - simply unimpressive. Earth - no use outside minor defensive boost for team at cost of flexibility (being stuck in ward) and farming. I suggest assigning many different conditions and effects to Earth and Water spells (e.g. Ice Spikes cause bleeding, Deep Freeze causes poison through the effect of frostbite, Freezing Gust also causes weakness if foe is hexed, Shatterstone deals deep wound when it ends, Aftershock deals deep wound and weakness to knocked down foes, Churning Earth causes dazed to stationary targets after x seconds, Magnetic Surge deals deep wound to foes without enchantment, Stoning deals deep wound to knocked down foes, Shockwave knocks down weakened foes, Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp has 25% AP etc.). Oh yeah say how it is imbalanced and useless, tell that to those who wanted to play Earth and Water in pve but were forced to spam SF over fire build to not get kicked ... you will be deeply surprised with gw2 skills for Ele.

Mesmer - many whine he is useless in pve while my friend does wonders with Mesmer in pve (and no, I don't mean solo farming using skills of other classes). I guess only few broken or useless skills could get a buff or two, to be more adapted to pve play, like Chaos Storm, Price of Pride, Shatter Storm ...

Necromancer - most hexes should last longer and some of them should have more powerful effect, especially since hexes expire on bosses 50% faster.

Paragon - seems about right now.

Monk - It would be interesting to see Smite builds buffed and viable as offensive builds actually in teams ... atm their only utility is farming and Monk has become a permanent healing/protting slave.

Redvex · Jan 05, 2010, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Ranger - too boring to even play it, so I will skip this part entirely and let experts talk more on this character.

Maybe i may add something.
I play pve 99% of time with may Ranger.
In pve (especially HM) Degen and interrupt are weak. In pve you must kill mob quickly so degen is not viable way.
Nature ritual: they affect party and mobs as well. They have longest recharge and activation and THEY ARE USELESS. Let me now if someone use Lacerate or Equinox that are ELITE.
Beast mastery: the pets are slot e when they arrive to target it is already dead.
In the other hand we have two powerful elites as Glass Arrows and Markasman Wager.

AmbientMelody · Jan 05, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Maybe i may add something.
I play pve 99% of time with may Ranger.
In pve (especially HM) Degen and interrupt are weak. In pve you must kill mob quickly so degen is not viable way.
Nature ritual: they affect party and mobs as well. They have longest recharge and activation and THEY ARE USELESS. Let me now if someone use Lacerate or Equinox that are ELITE.
Beast mastery: the pets are slot e when they arrive to target it is already dead.
In the other hand we have two powerful elites as Glass Arrows and Markasman Wager.

Indeed, Ranger seems like 'average' character for NM and something ... with not much uses in HM atm, in the traditional builds anyway.

Degen - I like to stack a lot of degen and curses on HM mobs, but it's personal preference. Takes longer to kill but efficiency is not dependant on armour of the monsters and it makes them less dangerous, thus my monks waste less energy healing and overall you can see something dangerous coming and actually respond to it when it happens. Degen is pretty much not a big issue here.

Spirits - indeed, something here 'lacks'. They have no much use unless you plan entire build (you + 3 heroes + hench/players) around synergy with the spirits, and more often that not it was case with overpowered farming build than any 'tactical' utility in beating a mission or vanquishing troublesome, specific areas.

Beast Mastery - pet got a buff recently along with other skills and now you need 1 skill slot less to equip and res pet if I reckon well. Pet is certainly not a Warrior tank equipped with a shield, but I see heroes die equally easy as the pets they bring so I don't know what kind of buff they should really get. Pet seems to be a good damage dealer in some cases, but when it comes to absorbing damage his survivability is of low value.

Interrupts are 'weak' due to 3 reasons, and it's a problem mostly to Mesmer and Ranger, since these classes are largely based around utilising them:

a) lag/delay ... if your ping isn't any good, forget about any serious interrupting, be it HM pve or pvp

b) halved cast time of HM mobs ... makes it much worse to interrupt them and to be honest it's unfair boost to them as it disrupts the diversity of builds viable for HM

c) halved recharge of HM mobs ... same as above, when the mob skills recharge too fast your interrupts are worth much less, you block one skill and next two are executed flawlessly dealing ton of pressure on the monks already

Also the bow attacks don't seem to bring any steady flow of damage (DPS-wise) worth noticing, but that would be a non-issue combined with degen if interrupting was actually worthwhile.

Same can be said about energy denial ... energy denial/lower energy regen skills aren't worth a jack in HM unless their sole purpose is dealing damage. When a mob has easily over 100+ energy and boss even more, debilitating them by 'sophisticated, indirect methods' is simply not viable. Another reason speed clear builds are usually retarded combinations of armour-ignoring damage completely ignoring interrupts, e-denial, degen, physical/elemental damage pressure. The way HM is ridiculously designed has made the game more challenging (as no one invites you to team) as some classes, instead of making the game content more interesting.

Gennadios · Jan 06, 2010, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Spirits - indeed, something here 'lacks'. They have no much use unless you plan entire build (you + 3 heroes + hench/players) around synergy with the spirits, and more often that not it was case with overpowered farming build than any 'tactical' utility in beating a mission or vanquishing troublesome, specific areas.

Not from where I'm standing.

I've had all but the SoS rit wiped in the DoA. Took about 8 minutes, but he was able to clear enough of the area around us to rez single handedly.

They do scary single target damage, provide durable meat shields, and you can go all but braindead and play them effectively. The only thing keeping spirits in balance so far is the fact that only one of each can be run per side.

Maybe some of the resto or communing spirits could use a buff, but there's nothing left to buff with the channeling ones.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 06, 2010, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

IMO, the issue with Dagger Sins are not the damage, but the survivability (survivability outside of SF)

No.

Please, you people, complaining about the Assassin's survivability... please, play one in HM and play it with an H/H group (because you will die with a PUG). There is no problem here, Assassins are very durable. If we should be concerned about anyone's survivability, it should be Warriors and Dervishes.

Beverly heals · Jan 06, 2010, 04:41 AM // 04:41

So first of all....
When i see this "Para only have SY" well this is a warrior skill

Then lets go to the fun part.

The skill that should be nerfed to me is Shadow Form. Because an abusive farm and misuse has taken his purpose away. sure having a perma tank is huge but the fact that an "elite" area is cleared in 11mins, is just killing the game. whats the point. but anyway....
Of course we could talk about the 600 that should be nerfed too. On the other hand, a 600 cannot speedclear like a sin is permitting it.

Note that the complaint is more about speed clear rather than farm itself.

Anet mostly made nerf and discriminated classes, as an example of the Paragon. Heavily nerfed at its beginning, as of today, ppl consider you as a noob, if you play one. Indeed we only have imbagon build, but again, if you aren't considered a noob while a para, ppl want you to have this build.

Back to the various modifications....

Mantra of resolved (duration 5seconds) this nerf lasted 1 day because Anet got scared when suddenly all the farmers left doomlore. Which also proves that being supposedly opposed to the farm ,they realize that this is what keeps people on GW. Oh yeah because GW2 is not out yet.... (they are probably nerfing everything in this unborn game)

Lets keep going.
Ritualist which was one of the most powerful and underated class became one of the most played because of overcheated skills. As you can teleport your spirits with the Factions PVE only skill, what is the point of having a 3/4sec summoning time for spirit. Just because it became brainless and to the reach to any PVXWiki addict player (aka brainless unevolved play) ritualist all became spirit spammers.
So to me Spamming a spirit should create "exhaustion" like some ele skills are doing. This way the spam becomes more wise.

Last but not least a thing that could be a huge improvement is that Anet creates a shortcut to target minions or spirit... because we have to admit, it is really really hard for a human MM to put deadly nova on a minion (especially when you have like 11 of those).

My very last thought....
It is more a nerf of players mentality rather than the game itself that is needed, but this is something that will never happen (sadly).
But beyond the fact that i'm complaining, i'm really happy how the things are right now, ppl are richer and richer (and still don't know how to play), which makes me rich too cause i get hired to vanquish for them.

Take care

Oh yeah i forgot.....
I love the We Shall return skill, really awesome.... but now time to rethink the build of the awaken cavalier.... 2 rez in there... so yeah i know we ould use frozen soil to avoid being bothered by that. But.... when in a worm, and when in HM you have 5 awaken cavaliers + 2 awaken acolytes.... how is it possible to make it less than a 10mins fight? loooooool

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 06, 2010, 05:13 AM // 05:13

It's come up a lot, and I'd like to touch on it.

Dervishes were originally intended to be a fragile class at the base with the ability to have very good self-prot and heal abilities. Their OTHER function was to use their enchantments (like Grenth's Fingers, that does damage initially, but has an end effect) to fuel powerful attack skills (the pre-nerfed Pious Assault).

Now, judging by previous reworks to Pious Assault, they've had a hard time dealing with a good Deep Wound inflicting attack skill. Reverting Pious Assault kills two birds with one stone, and the killing of enchantment juggling also made Mysticism itself rather lacking, due to the fact that now their design seems to favor maintaining the enchantments, and mysticism doesn't trigger if you reapply an enchantment.

Solution? Revert enchantment juggling Dervishes. knock A/D and W/D down a peg. Enchantment juggling was strong, but it did have it's downsides. You're still fragile, and if you don't pay attention you might cancel crucial enchantments. A/D and W/D use the scythe much better then Dervishes themselves can. In all other areas, Dervishes are pretty good in PvE, but they were a lot more fun to play way back in the day.

Mesmers? the only thing they need is maybe a bit of a recharge lowering on a lot of their skills. Fast Casting is an issue only because of Mindbender. Nerfing it makes Me/E more viable as a general option.

Rangers? These are the top of the list of classes that could use fixing. Beast Mastery is a lot cooler now, although Pet AI could use a buff. Marskmanship skills could use a rework. a lot of them simply suck. Wilderness Survival is a bit meh outside of trapping. Spirits are pretty pointless in PvE. A number of Ranger Elites could use use a buff.

Assassins? I can believe people are actually calling for a buff. If anything, they need a little bit of a nerf. Namely with Critical Agility. +armor should be removed on that skill altogether. I would even suggest a small -armor tagged on to it. Assassins should be able to deal the big damage they do now, but they should be a glass cannon. Maybe then Assassins will be more then just 1-2-3-4-3-4-3-4.

Paragons- They -do- have ok builds outside of SY, but they definitly need more. Their main function makes choosing a secondary profession a bit difficult, as few of them compliment a paragon. "SY!" in general is way too powerful for it's own good. the armor bonus needs to be reduced and the skill balanced accordingly. make the 'imbagon' a viable build, without being as overpowered as it is right now. Motivation skills need a bit rework as well. The problem is that paragon skills need to be of general use, seeing as they have the least amount of skills. A lot of paragon skills are too specific in use.

Other? ER needs to be nerfed. Make is disable monk skills.
Monks are fine, although I don't think anyone would complain if they had a more active energy management skill, instead of all the passive ones.

UnChosen · Jan 06, 2010, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

No.

Please, you people, complaining about the Assassin's survivability... please, play one in HM and play it with an H/H group (because you will die with a PUG). There is no problem here, Assassins are very durable. If we should be concerned about anyone's survivability, it should be Warriors and Dervishes.

I did...got spiked in Kathrandrax and several other areas. Repeated with my warrior, brought dolyak signet + signet of stamina + endure pain + defense stance, breezed through same areas with no problem, and STILL have great DPS simply by auto attacking when not using tanking skills.

The problem with sins is that they don't have their own "tanking" skills that are reliable. All of the shadow arts defense skills + shadow sanctuary ALL have some sort of ridiculous condition attached to them like being blinded, or can't attack, etc. Then there's the fact that they don't have a single survival/healing skill in their primary attribute, while warrior have EIGHT to choose from (Defy pain, Endure pain, Signet of Stamina, shield bash, Dolyak signet, lion's comfort, "I will survive!", and IWAY)

Therefore wars can spec some sort of self defense without any extra investment, but if sins want to do the same they have to spec in a rather useless attribute. Instead of relying on critical agility, why don't I just use a Dagger WARRIOR instead using warrior's endurance and spamming jagged strike, fox fang, and death blossom. Then I can also bring along some superb self defense (and give monks a break), and a self heal. In exchange I only lose a tiny bit of damage, big whoop. All the damage lost would be counteracted by having armor penetration from strength instead of the far more useless critical strike in HM (higher level monsters = less chance of crit).

Its the same thing with dervishes...their defense skills require them to spread their stats into a 3rd stat. Hence the popularity of Scythe WARS instead. With warrior's endurance people realize that a class that has quite decent self defense while only needing to spec into two stats, has inherently higher armor, and infinite energy is by far superior.

The funny thing is...Anet is thinking of buffing tactics, as if warriors need any more help.

reaper with no name · Jan 06, 2010, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Why do people want one of the most overpowered classes (the assassin) buffed?

Even if you ignore SF, MSDB is so ungodly powerful that it's ridiculous. 40 AoE dps on what is essentially a single-target spiking build? That's ridiculous. Scythes can barely beat that, and only then by devoting nearly their entire bar to it. And they can only hit 3 targets.

Meanwhile, the MSDB sin also gets nearly as much armor as a warrior (and significantly more than the dervish).

Rits needing a buff? Oh, no, no, no. Spirits are ungodly powerful as well, balanced only by the fact that you can only have one of a particular type of spirit out at once (preventing multiple spirit spammers). Don't touch them.